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NFL 2009
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MHC



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[color=darkred]Bobby...pass that joint back to Dungy. Y'all shouldn't be smoking in bed anyway.

I think it's ludicrous how the Saints and their players are being absolutely ignored in the broad media and continually discounted in sports media. Our defense, which [i]created[/i] turnovers and forced errors in the Vikings game, is simply inconsequential against Pope Peyton. Their offense is obviously overrated even if the Vikings had a better defense than the Colts.

Uh-huh.
[/color]
Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:53 pm View user's profile Find all posts by MHC Send private message
BobbyDigital



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[quote="MrHardcandy"][color=darkred]Bobby...pass that joint back to Dungy. Y'all shouldn't be smoking in bed anyway.

I think it's ludicrous how the Saints and their players are being absolutely ignored in the broad media and continually discounted in sports media. Our defense, which [i]created[/i] turnovers and forced errors in the Vikings game, is simply inconsequential against Pope Peyton. Their offense is obviously overrated even if the Vikings had a better defense than the Colts.

Uh-huh.
[/color][/quote]

[b]What does Dungy have to do with this?

From my ears, I don't think the Saints are being ignored at all. Most of the stuff I hear while saying the prediction is that the Colts will win have also said that this will be a shootout high scoring game and that Saints have as much a chance to win as the Colts. (Especially now with Freeney being questionable or not as effective).

The thing about Manning... is the guy was only sacked 13 times the whole season. Why? Because he doesn't sit back in the pocket and hold the ball. And they've played better defenses than the Saints this season. Actually the past two defenses they played were two of the best in the league. That D.C. from the Saints didn't help the team too much either with his stupid comments. I look for a few roughing the passer penalties from the refs to put that in check.

You ask me... the most underrated squad coming into this game is the Colt's defense.


Anyhoo, I'll be practicing my Kayne shrug for Monday. LOL[/b]
Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:04 pm View user's profile Find all posts by BobbyDigital Send private message Yahoo Messenger
MHC



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[color=darkred]Dungy said that it will be a blowout...at least two scores going away.

That's Vegas pushing that Freeny talk. It's the only "glimmer" at winning the Saints have gotten in 2 weeks.

The Saints beat the Jets when they were undefeated...and still the #1 defense in the league. The Patriots were #3. The Saints aren't straight finesse on offense...#6 in rushing. We were the #1 offense in the NFL...not the Pac-10.[/color]
Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:14 pm View user's profile Find all posts by MHC Send private message
Kaiju



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So the Saints and Colts have played common opponents and Saints have done as well or better but they are a mirage and the Colts are the real team. Peyton is great but he isn't the first great QB they've played this year. I think this game will be close and one for the ages.

Sean Payton didn't do his team any favors by trying to go ball control so early in the third quarter against the Vikings and the outcome should have never been in question. His play calling got predictable and he didn't make the right adjustments when game stayed close. It gives some people a false impression of the team. Maybe he was playing a little closer to the vest or thinking ahead but it nearly bit them in the ass.
Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:39 pm View user's profile Find all posts by Kaiju Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
MHC



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[color=darkred]Rickey Jackson was voted into the Hall of Fame yesterday. The first player to go in for his career as a Saint. Congratulations to the Captain of the Dome Patrol!!

And the band plays on. WHO DAT?![/color]
Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:18 pm View user's profile Find all posts by MHC Send private message
Najee



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[color=darkred]Sorry, MHC. But I believe that IMO Rickey Jackson being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame is based on sportswriters being emotional for the Saints and choosing him as some tie in to New Orleans making the Super Bowl for the first time.

Yet again, the Pro Football Hall of Fame continuing its trend of inducting questionable to curious choices while creating a logjam for other, more qualified players at other positions. Jackson was just a good linebacker, and IMO he wasn't even the best linebacker on his team (see Pat Swilling and Sam Mills).

IMO, Willie Roaf (who is eligible in 2011) should have been the first Saints player inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.[/color]


Last edited by Najee on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kaiju



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I couldn't disagree more. Rickey was the anchor of that defense before and after Swilling and Mills was good but not on that level. Jackson's stats alone earned him a spot but his level of play for over a decade sealed the deal. He was a more complete player than Swilling and was an effective pass rusher and run stopper. Once Swilling went to Detroit he got exposed a bit. Plus Rickey had been to several Pro Bowls and was an all pro several years before Swilling was even on the team.

It was good to see Rickey out there at the beginning of the game announced as a hall of famer. Congrats to the first Saint inducted into the hall.
Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:46 am View user's profile Find all posts by Kaiju Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
MHC



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[quote="Kaiju"]I couldn't disagree more. Rickey was the anchor of that defense before and after Swilling and Mills was good but not on that level. Jackson's stats alone earned him a spot but his level of play for over a decade sealed the deal. He was a more complete player than Swilling and was an effective pass rusher and run stopper. Once Swilling went to Detroit he got exposed a bit. Plus Rickey had been to several Pro Bowls and was an all pro several years before Swilling was even on the team.

It was good to see Rickey out there at the beginning of the game announced as a hall of famer. Congrats to the first Saint inducted into the hall.[/quote]

[color=darkred]Ditto on everything you just said on Jackson/Swilling (Sam Mills WAS the truth). Then REPEAT THAT AGAIN for his college career at Pitt. Hugh Green got all the press, all the accolades...but it became evident when they got to the NFL that Jackson was the REAL force on that Pitt defense. HE was the guy who got doubled, HE was the guy blocking schemes got adjusted for, but unlike bigmouths like Strahan and Sapp, HE didn't complain about what that did to his individual stats. Swilling and Green got theirs BECAUSE of Rickey Jackson...and he just kept getting it done "on the other side".


Rickey Jackson is MORE than deserving to be in the Hall of Fame.[/color]
Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:08 pm View user's profile Find all posts by MHC Send private message
Najee



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[color=darkred]Of course, you two would say that. But when I think of great linebackers emblematic of the '80s, I'm thinking of guys like Lawrence Taylor and Mike Singletary.

I'm sorry, but the Rickey Jackson I saw was a solid player but hardly some dominant player I typically associate with a hall of famer. He was a six-time Pro Bowler (he was named All-Pro by various publication) and four of those Pro Bowl seasons came before Pat Swilling became a starter in his second season.

Personally, I thought the Pro Football Hall of Fame was for the greatest players ever, players emblematic of an era of football. To me, Jackson is more along the lines of a Joey Porter-level player without the boistrous personality. [/color]


Last edited by Najee on Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:56 am; edited 3 times in total
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Kaiju



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[quote="Najee"][color=darkred]Of course, you two would say. But when I think of great linebackers emblematic of the '80s, I'm thinking of guys like Lawrence Taylor and Mike Singletary.

I'm sorry, but the Rickey Jackson I saw was a solid player but hardly some dominant player I typically associate with a hall of famer. He was a six-time Pro Bowler (no All-Pro selections, and four of those came before Pat Swilling became a starter in his second season.

Personally, I thought the Pro Football Hall of Fame was for the greatest players ever, players emblematic of an era of football. To me, Jackson is more along the lines of a Joey Porter-level player without the boistrous personality. [/color][/quote]

Of course? So because we disagree with your take we're picking him because he played for the Saints? Laughing

How much of him did you see? I saw nearly every game he played in between 82-90 and saw tapes of most of his remaning games as a Saint and my recollection agrees with MHC. Teams routinely doubled him, ran away from him etc. and he was still playing incredible football. BTW he was a 6 time pro bowler and 6 time All Pro.

Also bear in mind that Jackson put up those numbers when the Saints were in the NFC West. He played the Montana/Young lead 49ers teams, the Dickerson era Rams twice a year and gave them absolute hell. He was the best player on one of the best linebacking corps in the game.

Swilling was a great pass rusher but he did shit all as a run defender. That's one of the reasons the Saints traded him for picks.
Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:21 am View user's profile Find all posts by Kaiju Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Najee



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[color=darkred]Hi, Kaiju.

Rickey Jackson was named All-Pro by various publications (the Newspaper Ent. Association, The Sporting News and Pro Football Writers) four times in his career. None of them was The Associated Press, which names its All-NFL team and is considered the authoritative All-NFL team. Nothing personally, but let's not try to beef up Jackson's resume artificially. Laughing Laughing

I saw Rickey Jackson practically play his entire career, including his final two seasons when he was at San Francisco. And given where I live, I saw plenty of Saints games (particularly, but hardly solely, when the team became a playoff-caliber team in the late '80s and early '90s).

Like I said, he was a solid technician overall and was definitely a quality linebacker. But I never looked at him and thought, "This guy is right there with Lawrence Taylor, Mike Singletary, etc." He was consistent, but not particularly dominant. In a lot of respects, Joey Porter reminds me of Jackson -- a good player (and in Jackson's case, a good player who played a long time for one team), but definitely a cut below the dominant, elite players.

And believe me, I am not making some case for Pat Swilling. But I would like to hear the argument from a Saints fan what makes Jackson a better inductee this year over a player at a comparable position like, say, Charles Haley (five Pro Bowls and two AP All-Pro selections).

I tend to look at sacks numbers with a grain of salt, and really don't use them as a barometer of measure. The stat was not an official statistic until 1982, not to mention a team's scheme can play a factor some players' sack totals.

It is apparent Jackson received the sportswriters' ride the wave Saints/rise from Katrina sentiment for his election. In previous years, Jackson never came close to being a finalist for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Now, he's not only a finalist but he was inducted. My comment of "of course" is based on the fact that you're diehard a Saints fans -- in the afterglow of a Super Bowl win I would be surprised if any Saints fans agreed with me on a favorite player like Jackson.[/color]
Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:50 am View user's profile Find all posts by Najee Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kaiju



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Apparently his resume didn't need boosting. Laughing

You have your take and we have ours. Jackson was a complete player. He was a great pass rusher but he also was great against the run, routinely beat double teams to make tackles and all the other things that dominant players at his position did. To call him good is a disservice, he was a great player.
Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:58 am View user's profile Find all posts by Kaiju Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Najee



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[color=darkred]You're right -- Rickey Jackson had a bunch of sportswriters fall in love with the "New Orleans Saints going to the Super Bowl" storyline voting him in. How else do you explain a guy going from not even being a finalist in previous years in Pro Football Hall of Fame voting to being inducted, not coincidentally when the same sportswriters are gushing over his former team making its first Super Bowl appearance?

And you're free to tell me how Jackson is more deserving than a guy a like Charles Haley -- outside of the "Who Dat?" favoritism this year by the media.

Oh, well. They can put Jackson's and Russ Grimm's busts next to guys like Dan Hampton, Fred Dean and some of the other good-but-not-exactly-hall of fame worthy players who have been inducted in recent years.[/color]


Last edited by Najee on Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Kaiju



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You keep mentioning Haley but his career stats don't match up to Jackson's. Just because he had a bigger stage doesn't make him the better player. He has his Superbowl rings and will probably get in eventually like Dent and other folks.

You see Jackson as merely a good player but he was the dominant player on a good to great Saints defense for a decade and has the stats to back it up. He's made it and all the second guessing isn't going change that. Did the Saints success help him? Hell yes but he had the resume to be in there anyway.

So what's your take on guys like Floyd Little that were eligible for years before they make it? Does that detract from their legacy?
Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:45 pm View user's profile Find all posts by Kaiju Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Najee



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[color=darkred]I didn't say Charles Haley was better than Rickey Jackson because he played on Super Bowl-winning teams, Kaiju. However, FWIW Haley played in five Pro Bowls and unlike Jackson was a two-time All-Pro player (something for which you wanted to credit Jackson). I'm not even making an argument for Haley to be inducted, but asking what supposedly makes Jackson get the nod over a player like Haley (who is comparable to Jackson, but also I could not see inducted).

You keep going about stats for positions that have marginal statistical measures beyond sacks (a number not kept until 1982) and tackles (a number that can be effected by the defensive scheme in which a player plays). I believe Jackson has only 20 sacks more than Haley, though Jackson played two more seasons than Haley. Not to mention that raw stats in general can be skewed, so it's more of a case of watching players perform and their performance evaluations by scouts and personnel executives.

Personally, I feel only the truly, most dominant and emblematic players of an era of football should be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. So, no I would not have voted for Floyd Little (who exhausted his 15 years' of eligibility with the selection committee, which was undermined by the seniors committee' selection), nor would I have voted for Russ Grimm as well. It's not the hall of good players, the good ol' boys system and fan favorites, which has been part of the problem with the Pro Football Hall of Fame lately (from fans of a team to biased sportswriters to even some of the seniors committee).

I talked with several other NFL fans about the hall of fame inductions, and they said similar things I'm saying about Jackson. And I have to disagree about the resume thing -- if Jackson's resume truly was strong enough on his own to be inducted, IMO he would have been a finalist at least once before this season. Based on my research, dude was a semifinalist only one other time.

I recall Jackson typically considered one of the top 10 linebackers or so during his playing days by scouts and personnel evaluators in the mid- to late 1980s, but clearly behind a Lawrence Taylor or a Mike Singletary. Like I said, there was a period during Pat Swilling's top years that scouts and evaluators placed Swilling ahead of him.

I'm not saying Jackson was a dog by any means, but I just never thought "hall of famer" when I saw him play. Well, if Jackson is in then it's fair to say someone like Claude Humphrey has an even better shot.[/color]


Last edited by Najee on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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OHbrotha



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I still think that, stats be damned, Archie Manning should have been the first Saint in the HOF.
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Najee



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[color=darkred]Hence, my statement: [i]"It's not the hall of good players, the good ol' boys system and fan favorites, which has been part of the problem with the Pro Football Hall of Fame lately (from fans of a team to biased sportswriters to even some of the seniors committee)."[/i][/color]
Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:26 pm View user's profile Find all posts by Najee Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
MHC



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[color=darkred][size=18]WHY???[/size]

Archie Manning had Chuck Muncie, Robert Galbreath, and Wes Chandler...and couldn't manufacture a winning season back when we were in the NFC West with the Rams (see Atlanta Braves, NL East), the Falcons, and the (pre-Walsh) 49ers. Okay...the defense may have sucked, but a QB finds ways to preserve wins (the 42-35 MNF loss to the Raiders comes to mind). Mad Mad Mad The only time I recall him going to the Pro-Bowl was after the 8-8 season. Our best before Jim Mora and Bobby Hebert.[/color] ETA: and Rickey Jackson

[color=darkred]Don't get me started on Ahh-chie's ass.[/color]
Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:30 pm View user's profile Find all posts by MHC Send private message
Najee



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[color=darkred]I agree, MHC. Popular athletes and fan favorites is not a requirement for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, IMO.

I'm a little tired of the media sympathy garnered for Archie Manning during his time with the Saints. He simply didn't get it done, and it's been proven a player can be productive and effective even on losing teams (see Barry Sanders). I always looked at Manning as an above-average quarterback when he played, not this revisionist treatment he gets.

IMO, Willie Roaf should have been the first Saints player inducted.

BTW, MHC, Manning was chosen to two Pro Bowls (1978, 1979).[/color]
Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:38 pm View user's profile Find all posts by Najee Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kaiju



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[quote="MrHardcandy"][color=darkred][size=18]WHY???[/size]

Archie Manning had Chuck Muncie, Robert Galbreath, and Wes Chandler...and couldn't manufacture a winning season back when we were in the NFC West with the Rams (see Atlanta Braves, NL East), the Falcons, and the (pre-Walsh) 49ers. Okay...the defense may have sucked, but a QB finds ways to preserve wins (the 42-35 MNF loss to the Raiders comes to mind). Mad Mad Mad The only time I recall him going to the Pro-Bowl was after the 8-8 season. Our best before Jim Mora and Bobby Hebert.[/color] ETA: and Rickey Jackson

[color=darkred]Don't get me started on Ahh-chie's ass.[/color][/quote]

I don't think anybody was going to make a case for Archie getting in there. Laughing He gets the sentimental treatment at home because folks remember the shit he had to eat for all those years.

Of course once they had that core and seemed to be improving they promptly traded away everyone. San Diego reaped the benefits in a huge way and became even more explosive with Chandler and Muncie. Then Bum came in and brought every Houston Oilers reject he could sign. John Meachum was a Donald Stirling level douche when it came ownership. Mad
Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:57 pm View user's profile Find all posts by Kaiju Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
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